At age 32 it was getting a little frustrating being a "record executive" and going to meetings for no obvious reason than finding out what time the next meeting would be. While sitting in the Green Room with Kris Kristofferson at the old but great TV show The Phil Donahue Show I got chatting with him about my feelings at the time. "Ah man, you've got a long way to go with lots of things to do". Those words helped me decide to move on to other things because Kristofferson knew what he was talking about. He was in his late twenties/early thirties before he got Johnny Cash to listen to his music and really start his career. Lesson learned: don't ever think you are "too old" or be too set in your ways to try something new. Not long after the talk with Kris I joined up with Miles Copeland, manager of The Police at the time and started a great career as artist manager.